By now you’ve likely seen the clip of Vice President and presidential nominee Kamala Harris exiting a DC record store with an armful of Lp purchases, notably including several jazz releases, among them Charles Mingus and Roy Ayers. The story behind that particular record store – and its place among what some consider ‘a dying breed’ of retail outlets is quite interesting; Ms. Harris decidedly wasn’t crate digging at some hole-in-the-wall or some retail outlet with side orders of Lps and CDs (as if those still existed!).

The store in question is HR Records, located in the heart of DC’s northwest quadrant at 702 Kennedy Street NW. Given that momentous Kamala Harris visit and the seeming rarity of retail record stores these days, some background on this particular store was in order, so we sought out HR Records proprietor Charvis Campbell with some questions.

What are the origins of HR Records, and it’s Kennedy Street location?

HR Records was founded by myself and Michael Bernstein, my partner, in March 2018. We have a video on our Instagram page that shows the early days of the shop when the walls were naked. But you knew something special was going to happen in the place. We’re just so blessed and grateful to be here for five years.

The majority of the early collection for the store came from Baltimore. I essentially acquired an entire record shop, and we brought that from Baltimore to DC. The shop was called East-West Records, located kind of on the edge of Baltimore on Liberty Road near I-695, located in a small strip mall. I remember that I had to go down some stairs and that there was a church in the basement, an African hair braiding spot, a barber shop, a religious bookstore, and then Bill’s record shop. I would suggest to Bill let’s bring these records to DC and we’ll make some money. Bill being the wise old man that he was said ‘you do a pop-up and yard sales but don’t do a brick & mortar because it’s tough.’ He was right.

But I clearly didn’t listen to him, and he didn’t listen to himself because he called me one day and he said ‘hey, you know that record collection you wanted to buy, you can have it and on top of that I have another large collection from a friend who passed away so you could have that as well.’ It turned out to be hundreds of boxes of records, books, record bins, posters, etc.

I met Michael when he actually came to my house to buy some records. I was getting married and I vividly remember that I put an ad on craigslist to sell some of my records because my wonderful wife, my beautiful smart wife said… ‘you know that I love you but you can’t bring all those records into our house.’ So I knew I had to sell off some of the collection, so I put an ad in craigslist and sure enough some of the folks who came were record shop owners… and Michael Bernstein. That’s when I realized there was some value to records. Before, I was very content just buying let’s say 100 records, with the intention of keeping five and selling the remaining 95 to break even and get my money back. It wasn’t until I was getting married and the record shop guys came to my house that I knew there was some value in these records.

Michael and I hit it off. I’m from New York and so is he. I have a love of jazz and so does Michael. We both have families – his kids are a little bit older than mine, but we both appreciate and love kids. We spent a few months looking for a spot. We looked in Georgetown and we looked in different neighborhoods around the city. But when we saw our spot on Kennedy Street we just fell in love. We just knew right away it was our home. We walked in and it was like one of those aha moments where you could just feel the energy and the vibe. You knew it was going to be something special and we’re just grateful that we’ve been here for five plus years, and we’re strong.

What would you say is the primary feature of HR Records?

We specialize in rare jazz and soul, African and reggae records. That’s what we love, that’s what we know, and that’s what walks in the door. We’re one of the only record shops that’s kind of in the community – we’re on Kennedy Street in Brightwood [702 Kennedy St. NW]. We’re not on U Street, we’re not on 14th Street, and we’re not in Georgetown. We’re a destination – you have to come and find us. Which I think is an important aspect of who we are – we’re community-focused.

One of the most interesting things about owning a record store is that I feel that we’re a community space. We have people who come in the shop who believe it or not don’t have a record player but buy records! We have folks who come in who go digging the crates and who are looking for beats. I have people who are being exposed to jazz music for the first time. It’s a wide-range of people who come in our door. I feel like I have a duty to be that space where people can come in and talk and exchange ideas about music and culture. Historically record shops, like barber shops and beauty salons, have been that place in the Black community where you can go and talk about music, film, and culture. In many ways we are that space.

How do you stock HR Records and keep your selection fresh?

Records walk through the door. Almost every day someone comes in with some records to sell from large to small collections. They call sometimes to set appointments but what I’m really enjoying is making house visits. I learn more about people spending a few hours going through records, talking about music, family, and DC culture. For me it’s really about relationships and developing relationships. I’m excited to hear stories about DC music and culture, stories about how people acquired their music. I think you really get to know somebody when you spend a couple hours in someone’s house going through their record collection.

Moreover there’s some collections that have taken me years to acquire. Some people treat some of their records like they treat their kids – sometimes better! So it’s about music, and relationships, but it’s also about learning that there’s a deeper story to be told. For example, we had acquired an amazing collection of records from a man named Georges Collient. George is one of the founders of Afro-pop and was one of the first African music journalist/hosts on Voice of America.

I found George to be a great man with a love of life – he laughs, knows music, and he’s just one of those people who as soon as you meet him you know he’s special. When I first met Georges I was attracted to his records – he had thousands of African and jazz records. But the other aspect was really just my love of wanting to learn more about Georges the man and wanting to learn more about his life, then realizing that Georges is special and that other people need to hear his story.

So I believe that I have a duty to help tell the stories of DC music and culture. I have a responsibility to help tell Georges’ story to other people – not to necessarily make a movie but to document and help preserve this history. I believe in oral histories, and we were fortunate through our non-profit to get a grant a few years ago to do oral history interviews on some of DC’s jazz musicians who performed at Westminster Church. [Editor’s note: Westminster Presbyterian Church in SW DC, under the leadership of Rev. Brian Hamilton and tireless jazz supporter and weekly host Dick Smith has for decades presented Jazz Night in DC every Friday evenng, featuring many of the DMV’s finest musicians and selling dinners in its lower level.] So when I acquire records and when I visit people’s homes, I think in terms of how do I make sure to tell this story and keep the legacy and culture alive.

In this day of vastly diminished record store resources, what does HR Records offer that folks simply cannot find online?

We offer the best in rare jazz and soul. We also offer what other record stores don’t. In any business, I think it comes down to the people. I know that our staff is the best in town. We just love music. We love and know jazz music. We love and know soul music. We love what we play and we know what we play. I think we have a love of jazz, soul, reggae and African records that is about understanding our history and culture.

How do you suppose Kamala Harris found out about HR Records, and tell us about the day she stopped by and was famously interviewed with her purchases that day? What was she specifically looking for at HR Records?

I would like to thank Madam Vice President for visiting HR Records! I’m not really sure how she heard about HR Records. I would like to think that Kamala Harris is a record shop junkie was like ‘I must go to HR Records!’ Maybe she heard about HR Records because we both went to Howard University. Or maybe it’s because I’m in Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity and she’s in Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority. Frankly it’s very possible that it was her advance team or someone on our staff who alerted her to the shop. Bottom line, the VP made a visit and it’s a wonderful story that I’m blessed to share.

I received the first call I think like around 9-10am. I think it was first from the Small Business Administration. They asked if I was the owner of the shop, and if I would be around throughout the day. They asked some background questions and it felt almost like an interview. When I hung up the phone I didn’t think anything until a few minutes later when I got the next call from the Vice President’s office. They said something like someone senior on the VP’s staff may make a visit. But they never stated directly who would be visiting. They also said that the Secret Service will first visit the store. I remember hanging up and calling my wife saying that I think the Vice President is coming but I wasn’t sure. I didn’t know what to expect. I thought that if they’re sending Secret Service to checkout the store then maybe the Vice President’s coming but I wasn’t quite sure, but you still don’t know. I didn’t know what to expect. I would have thought that they would do a visit a day or weeks in advance. But then the Secret Service team arrived in the shop, and they’re spending hours i n the shop. But they again don’t say that the Vice President is coming!

When Madame Vice President came in the shop she was sincere and down to earth. She was engaging. She spoke with my staff and customers. She made me feel special – like I’m the main reason why she’s here. Perhaps that’s why she’s a politician and hopefully about to be the next POTUS.

It’s funny now, I tried to throw her some softballs and say ‘hey, you want to checkout Coltrane‘ but she was like ‘no, where’s the Mingus.’

When the Vice President goes anywhere a team of press corps travels with her. It’s a lot of people: it’s Secret Service, it’s an advance team, it’s the press corps, it’s the local police and fire department… It’s huge and it’s overwhelming! I can see why in some instances the President doesn’t want to hit the local restaurant or shop because they have to close things down. They had to shut down the entire neighborhood for blocks during her visit. I didn’t realize it because I was inside the shop, but I heard from various people that the neighborhood was frozen and that they couldn’t move anywhere for about an hour because the Vice President was in the shop. It was an amazing experience – the VP was sincere, down to earth, and I think really cared about the experience.

Talk about how HR Records became central to the efforts of the Home Rule Music Festival and how that event became a reality.

The Home Rule Music Festival is a program of the Home Rule Music and Film Preservation Foundation. It’s a long title but it clearly says what we do and what we love – music and film.

I believe that when you combine the mediums of film and music there’s nothing like it – from an educational perspective, from a historical perspective, from a cultural perspective – or a let’s just enjoy life perspective.

During the Covid pandemic, we started Home Rule Music and Film. Before Covid we were doing a lot of events on Kennedy Street and in the community, with music performances and events with the kids. We knew it would be helpful to establish a non-profit to have other folks support us with those efforts. One of our first projects was the documentary on Black Fire Records that’s currently available for viewing on PBS.com.

It was right before Covid that we held an event in the shop with (saxophonist) Plunky (Branch) from Oneness of JuJu. It was for record store day and I think we termed it Black Fire Records Day. Plunky spoke and performed and we filmed it. I stood behind the camera and watched through the lens as Plunky told his story. I was really impressed with Plunky’s love of life. He’s full of energy and he knows his jazz. He’s smart and articulate and just one of these men that you know is special and you want to be around. I knew then that I wanted to help tell his story and the Black Fire Records story.

So on his way out that day I told Plunky and his team that I want to do a documentary on him. Plunky’s a nice guy so he was like ‘sure’. I’m not sure if he knew what he was getting himself into when he said sure. About a week or two later, I heard about this community grant through Humanities DC. The deadline was in a week. So I contacted Plunky and I pitched him. We quickly started working on the grant document. We submitted the paperwork and didn’t think anything about it. A couple of months later, I received an email saying that we got the grant.

The reality is you can’t make a movie with a $10,000 grant, so we raised about another $20-25K from other sources, including Plunky, family, friends, and through a crowdsourcing campaign. We interviewed 19 people over several days, and we shot quality interviews with the understanding that we wanted to do something with the final product. So we had this wonderful film but near the end of Covid people were still hesitant to come inside in large crowds, so we rightly concluded that the best way to show off the film was to have a full-day of live performances of the music associated with the film, followed by a screening of the film at night. So the Home Rule Music Festival was really born out of our desire to support our documentary on Black Fire Records and to have the community better understand and appreciate DC’s music history and culture.

The festival morphed into a day of music, with vendors, food, and community organizations. The festival grew beyond our wildest expectations and dreams. We were over-achievers and in year one I think we had about 2500-3000 people show up. In year 2 we had closer to 4000 and in year three we programmed an even bigger festival.

The festival has grown into a year-long program that now takes a team with months of planning, effort, time and fundraising. This past year our budget was nearly $200K.

How do you see HR Records and the Home Rule Music Festival working hand-in-glove?

HR Records is our for-profit business, Home Rule Music and Film is our non-profit organization, and then the festival is a program that supports our strategic mission and vision. We have been thoughtful to separate our community engagement work, which is done through our non-profit, from our for-profit business.

Where do you see the Home Rule Music Festival advancing?

The Home Rule Music Festival wants to be the preeminent festival celebrating DC’s rich musical heritage and culture. With that being said, my grandmother once told me to be careful what I ask for because you may just get it. We clearly over-achieved starting with the first year of the festival growing in attendance, and with the number of vendors and sponsors participating. Producing an event of that size and caliber requires a team and months, if not a year of planning, and so the festival is kind of turning into a year-round program which is wonderful but obviously comes with challenges as well.

We’re currently working on developing an education program tentatively called The Uptown Arts Project that’s connected to the festival. The Uptown Arts Project focuses on teaching skills and providing experiential opportunities for youth in events production, filmmaking, music production, video editing, sound and lighting, and stage management. Our plan is to provide classes and structured activities that aim to increase the capacity of youth in DC to be productive and employed members of the arts community. A goal is to help youth develop media arts competencies and literacies to effectively participate in the modern digitally centered environment, and to achieve sell-sufficiency and economic enhancement.

Talk about your WPFW radio show and how that dovetails with your activities on behalf of jazz & arts.

I wish I was more thoughtful and intentional with my work with HR Records, Home Rule Music and Film, and with my personal work with WPFW as an on-air programmer. But frankly my work with WPFW is really just me having fun, and sharing my love of music with a hopefully interested and excited audience. I play what I know and love – jazz and soul music with a spiritual sound. Moreover, I feel I have a duty to not only preserve the stories of jazz history and culture in Washington, DC, but a right to show and tell everyone about it. At WPFW, I go on the air after the great Rusty Hassan. Sitting in the WPFW control room listening to stories from Rusty Hassan about jazz legends is worth the price of admission and the weekly overnight loss of sleep.

What can we look for from the Home Rule Music Festival in it’s 2025 incarnation?

We are still plowing through the 2024 Home Rule Music Festival. Due to the extreme heatwave this past summer, we re-scheduled part 2 of our festival and our celebration of go-go music to Saturday, October 26th. The date is quickly approaching so that’s our immediate focus. But obviously we’re already thinking about and planning for 2025. We’re going to be strategic with our growth, and we’re going to spread the Home Rule Music Festival to other areas of DC.

We’re going to build on what we do well and I think that’s the creation of a wonderful community of artists, supporters, vendors, sponsors and community organizations who are all there in the community to celebrate DC’s rich musical history and culture. So that’s what we’re about and that’s what we’re going to continue to do.

Gentleman of Jazz is the image that reading this book and recalling the original piano trio of the late NEA Jazz Master pianist Ramsey Lewis will most assuredly yield. Essentially an “as told to” autobiography written by Chicago-based music writer Aaron Cohen, this is a revealing read recalling the somewhat underrated odyssey of one of Chicago’s finest and most consistent jazz contributors. And in a book field where jazz greats’ memoirs remain in short supply (plenty of biographies; less so with autobiographies and memoirs), clearly some questions were in order for Aaron Cohen.

What was the genesis of this book project with Ramsey Lewis?

Well, the short answer is Ramsey asked me to co-write the book and I agreed. But there’s a longer, better answer than that. Ramsey had been interested in writing his memoir for a number of years. I can’t say for how long or why he hadn’t actively pursued doing so – though, as we know, being an accomplished musician of his stature is already more than enough work for one lifetime. Meanwhile, I spent the last several years writing about music, editing DownBeat, and completing a couple of books of my own (Amazing Grace and Move On Up: Chicago Soul Music and Black Cultural Power). When Ramsey revisited the idea a few years ago, he and his agent (Brett Steele) asked around for a co-writer and a few people who knew him and knew my work recommended me. So Brett called and I sent him samples of my work.

Then Ramsey called and invited me to his home downtown to meet him and his wife Jan and talk about the project. So I wrote an outline for what I felt should be covered in the book and what we should start with for a sample chapter. (I thought it would be the events preceding and after [Ramsey’s all-time hit] “The In Crowd” because it was the hit that changed everything). We agreed on all of that and after we completed the chapter, Brett sent it off to potential publishers and Blackstone picked it up. And then the work really started. Funny thing, I had spoken briefly to Ramsey a couple of times before this – we met in 1998 on our way to the Havana International Jazz Festival (him as a performer, me as a journalist) and chatted when I was in the audience for a taping of one of his TV shows. But I had never interviewed him for an article. Reason being that wherever I worked, it was always someone higher in the pecking order who got to interview him.

Talk a bit about your research and where you were able to derive valuable insights and information into Ramsey Lewis’ artistry.

Most of the insights came from Ramsey himself. But I did a lot of other research through back issues of jazz magazines (especially DownBeat) as well as periodicals that may not have been considered music magazines per se, be they newspapers like the Chicago Tribune and New York Times, or African American periodicals, including the Chicago Defender and Ebony. All of which not only described his music but also a lot of his earlier charitable work that he was too humble to brag about. I also have to add that the brilliant scholar Guthrie Ramsey, Jr. has helped illuminate many of my thoughts on Ramsey’s work. There were also great books about wider issues surrounding Ramsey’s trajectory, such as Isabel Wlkerson’s The Warmth Of Other Suns about the Great Migration. Ramsey also enjoyed that book and we discussed it during one of our conversations. Along with books and articles, one of the joys of working on this project was playing Ramsey YouTube videos of himself in the early 1970s and watching his reaction. Not only did it open up Ramsey’s memories of the time, but the look of elation as he watched his younger self was priceless. One post-script: I am looking forward to reading Mike Smith’s new book In With The In Crowd: Popular Jazz in 1960s Black America, which seems to be about topics that Ramsey and I discussed.

Aaron Cohen

Who were some of the most informative interviewees for this book beyond your many conversations with Ramsey, and why did you feel a need to incorporate their “voices” in this book?

From the outset, Ramsey and I both felt it was important to add other perspectives to make his story multi-dimensional. And to Ramsey’s credit, he did not change the perspectives of former colleagues who remembered things differently than he did. That was especially the case when Redd Holt added his thoughts on why the original Ramsey Lewis Trio broke up. Also, not only were so many of his former colleagues also great musicians but so many of them have been incredible characters, too. One of my favorites was percussionist Derf Reklaw, who I spoke to about three weeks before he passed. A wonderful guy, Derf was also a zany character who provided a rich contrast to Ramsey who was more straight-laced (though Ramsey also always had a sharp sense of humor).

Ramsey’s family also provided many perspectives when he spoke about some delicate issues that had to be part of the narrative. But everyone I included had very valuable things to say and I’m incredibly grateful for everything they shared for this project. It’s interesting, one other jazz memoir that included many perspectives of others was Art Pepper‘s The Straight Life and while he was a great saxophonist, I can’t think of two more dissimilar personalities than Ramsey Lewis and Art Pepper.

Would this book be appropriately placed in the category of an “as-told-to” autobiography?

Indeed, it is an as-told-to biography. Ramsey enjoyed reading the chapters as they were completed and commented on them, and it is heartbreaking that he did not live long enough to see it published. He passed before the introduction was written, so I wrote that while including his quotes that would have been used for that part. I also felt that I should add an annotated discography. As I was working on the book, many people asked me which of his 60 albums they should buy. So rather than just list them all and leave it at that, I decided to add my thoughts on about 20 or so that I felt should be in everybody’s home.

As you researched Ramsey Lewis life and career, what most compelled you to write this book?

I’ve always loved Ramsey’s music – growing up a jazz and soul fan in Chicago, how could I not? It’s always fascinated me how he could take from so many idioms – jazz, soul, gospel, classical – and come up with something that only he could do. But working on the book enlightened me as to what an incredible life’s journey he led. From talking about his parents’ struggle to his own deep love for music, to how his hard work and open mind led to incredible success – it adds up tp a great story of African American accomplishment that the world needs to hear. Also, as I mentioned earlier, he had such a great sense of humor, it was a joy spending time with him and I hope that joy translated to the printed page.

Given that there are obviously writers and would-be writers out here who might be contemplating or working towards a similar project with a great artist, please detail your process in working with Ramsey.

Ramsey and I met at his place about once a week, or we’d talk over Zoom. Meanwhile, I would also conduct interviews (mostly over the phone) with people who worked with him as well as his family members. Either I would transcribe the interviews or if it was a busy week of other duties, I’d pay to have a few transcribed. (Along with working on the book, I was juggling responsibilities as a community college professor and freelance journalist). I would also research questions using the media I mentioned above before speaking with him, and to verify dates and such, after speaking with him, I could not expect him to remember activities or performances from decades earlier – I can’t even remember what I had for lunch yesterday – so I would bring him articles and play clips to jog his memory and get his response. Ideally, we would have also been able to just hang out and talk without it being for the book, but sadly, our time was limited.

What has been the response to this book thus far, and where do you hope to go with it?

The response I was most concerned about was from Ramsey while we were working on it, as well as Jan and his family after it was published, as well as his former colleagues and people who knew him. They all approved of it. The best public event for the book was in downtown Chicago last summer. Jazz radio hero Mark Ruffin hosted a wonderful panel discussion at the Chicago Cultural Center, followed by a terrific concert of Ramsey’s music that trumpeter Orbert Davis put together in Millennium Park. The book also received some very nice reviews and I’m glad that those articles continue to let people know what a great musician Ramsey was. I hope the book stays in print forever and it continues to illuminate people what an incredible life Ramsey lived. Meanwhile, I’m using this experience to help guide my current book project, which is I’m helping finish the memoir of another NEA Jazz Master, Richard Davis. I’ve enjoyed giving talks about Ramsey and Richard and the qualities they shared, as well as what made their own music so distinctive.

The Landfill Chronicles: Unearthing Legends of Modern Music

by Dan Ouellette (publisher: Cymbal Press)

When veteran jazz journalist and Ron Carter biographer Dan Ouellette’s current book The Landfill Chronicles was released (and read the book for Dan’s intro on how he came about that rather cheeky title) I knew given his experience in the field and the focus on his vast artist interviewing history that there would be some real pearls in the volume, and I was not disappointed. After all this is a writer who has not only set his recorder down in front of myriad artists at home, backstage, or somewhere on the road across modern music genres, Dan has also been afforded many opportunities to encounter artists at festival opportunities around the globe for “live” audiences, including conducting DownBeat Blindfold Tests. Given that depth of experience, clearly some questions were in order for Dan on the whys & wherefores of this book.

What motivated you towards a book anthologizing a selection of your many interviews?

Dan Ouellette: Plain and simple… the pandemic made me do it! No shows to go to, zero dollars in my writing world from DownBeat to Billboard. So instead of looking forward, I looked back. Actually over the last few years before I started the book, I noticed online that most of my past writings were untraceable. Basically all that had been written for print in newspapers and magazines had been buried in the landfills. Pretty much, gone forever. Hence my working title: The Landfill Chronicles: Unearthing Legends of Modern Music. I thought at least I could write a compilation book for archival purposes.

Frank Zappa was an obvious first start. I did the last full with him at his Hollywood Hills home in 1993, shortly before he died. It was the cover story for the Tower Records free monthly magazine, Pulse! It was profiled on stands in the stores then moved to the trash when the next month’s issue came out. Those were the pre-digital days, so it was all print and nothing else. Pulse! died when Tower went bankrupt. So I dug through my online backups and came across a lot more than had been printed in the magazine. Essentially the writer’s cut. I had written 4,500 words and the magazine probably published 2,500-3,000 of that word count.

Second was Wayne Shorter who I had talked to and interviewed several times in the aughts. DownBeat, the San Francisco Chronicle, and others. So I stitched together all my landfill conversational experiences with Wayne into a narrative.

I kept going: Astor Piazzzolla for the long-defunct Berkeley Monthly; Lou Reed on his last band albums for SF Chronicles and Schwann Spectrum, where I was editor. I made a list of memorable conversations with artists – mostly jazz artists like Jason Moran, Charlie Haden, and Keith Jarrett, but some smart pop artists like Elvis Costello, David Byrne, and Joni Mitchell. It resulted in 27 chapters that I published at the Medium platform.

I wasn’t thinking ahead to publishing beyond Medium until about a year ago Cymbal Press publisher Gary S. Stager contacted me after reading some of my chapters. He was wondering if I had a book in mind – which opened to door for me to work with the wonderful people there to shape and edit the book, especially Cymbal president Sylvia Martinez.

Given your veteran music journalist status, what was your process of selecting these particular 27 interviews, and what was it about these interviews that you found compelling enough to include in the book?

DO: It was following my instincts and my memories. I came up with a list, then tracked them down in my files and considered if what I found was interesting to include. I knew I wasn’t writing a full-tilt biography of each artist, but focusing on artists who were experiencing pivotal moments in their careers when we had our conversations. As it turned out, as I was reading and editing [the interviews], it brought back fond memories where I began to realize this was not only an archive but also a memoir. After I published [The Landfill Chronicles], I was OK’d to write a Volume 2. In search again, I have developed more meaningful Medium chapters on Tracy Chapman, Jimmy Heath, the Charlie Watts/Jim Keltner jazz project, Abbey Lincoln, Jim Hall... More memoir.

Once you made your choices of which interviews to include, what was your process for preparing these interviews for publishing?

DO: I delivered all m y completed and published Medium online files to Sylvia [Martinez, Cymbal Press president] who became my invaluable editor. She raised questions, she helped me rewrite confusing chapters… brought it all together. We came up with chapter headings and even decided to give the collection an alphabetical Table of Contents and provide a road map page at the end as to where these stories originally appeared. We Zoomed and emailed each other regularly.

Were there any of these interviews that you found particularly challenging to achieve?

DO: These stories were written over the course of three decades. Early on, I worked on the art of conversation and how to fashion what the artist and I talked about into the writing. I stress: conversations, not some robotic Q&A.

That brings me to Frank Zappa, who was probably the hugest challenge. But I had three months to prep given his failing health. He had a huge history to study. Plus, Frank had the reputation for eating writers for lunch. Not me. We ended up conversing for nearly 5 hours in his living room and later in his recording studio.

I came to know Wayne Shorter, but my first phone interview with him threw me for a loop. I was talking to him about the 1+1 album he recorded with Herbie Hancock. I had already seen the duo perform a preview show at the Villa Montalvo Arts Center in Saratoga, CA. They were returning to the Bay Area at Berkeley’s Zellerbach Auditorium. I was writing a preview story for the San Francisco Chronicle and Wayne was my contact. I asked him about the collaboration with Herbie. He answered my query by going through an elliptical thought pattern – cryptic parabolas starting at one point then swinging widely into the stars and finally, miraculously coming back to earth with a soft landing of insight. After I got off the phone, I was worried that I didn’t have anything to work with from this oblique conversation. But I reviewed my notes, listened to the taped interview again, and then realized that his thought process was quite brilliant and wonderful.

You’ve done a lot of DownBeat Magazine Blindfold Tests. Was the Freddie Hubbard DBFT particularly challenging, and if not talk about some of your DBFT challenges.

DO: The Freddy Hubbard Blindfold Test wasn’t challenging. I had done a lot of BFTs by then so I just put together a set list for the IAJE conference in Long Beach, CA. It was all about the music I played. Freddie was iffy on showing up because of his health. But he did come and actually it turned out to be a bit challenging for him. I merely followed his reflections, especially on tunes that he did not like. He was gracefully angry.

One of my most interesting BFT experiences was with all three Heath Brothers. It was a challenge to come up with a set list that would intrigue them. It was hilarious and it will appear in its entirety in Landfill, Volume 2.

My freakiest BFT came at the North Sea Jazz Festival. I was only using one microphone at the time to record the reflections. Chris Botti was in the hot seat. He did great. The next day I tried to listen to the tape and there was nothing there! I remembered the crew had cut the mics onstage before I saved. It was gone. So I somehow called Chris and he remembered his reflections well. It ran perfectly! From then on… 2 mics!

What advice would you give aspiring young music journalists as far as how they approach interview opportunities in terms of deriving the most compelling testimony from an interview subject?

DO: First off, do your homework beforehand. Know the person. Know their music. Try not to query too much about their past, like, when did you start playing music? That’s pretty much available online for your prep. But talk about the process they went through. I interviewed Pharoah Sanders once and he started by saying don’t ask me anything about John Coltrane. I obliged and started our conversation about his new work. Through the course of our conversation once he got going, he ended up talking a lot about Trane. You can share some of what you’re thinking about as it can help the flow of the conversation. But share only as much as it triggers a response and keeps the conversation going. There really is an art of conversation. Lastly, do not resort to a straight Question & Answer format when talking. Like Ques. 1-Ques. 10. Straight Q & As oftentimes make for boring reading.

A few quotes on my “conversational” style.

Joe Lovano: “Dan Ouellette’s The Landfill Chronicles is a must-read collection of conversational encounters. Dan’

For part 4 of our ongoing series of dialogues with jazz radio programmers/show hosts we hear from Brad Stone, who broadcasts jazz programming out of a streaming platform from just south of the San Francisco Bay Area. And we hear from my former WPFW colleague Keanna Faircloth, who is more recently formerly of WBGO, and who has recently launched a new, limited time jazz radio broadcasting series with a promise of future series.

BRAD STONE: With 45 years of radio experience, at several different stations and under different circumstances, how to program great jazz radio can vary quite a bit depending upon those circumstances. I will attempt to describe my approach to jazz radio programming, given three different scenarios: 1) my current program: a 2.5 hour weekly program that streams on demand on SoulandJazz.com; 2) my approach to programming a terrestrial radio program at a university station that featured, in part, jazz, and 3) how I would approach a major jazz station playing jazz 24/7 (or something close to that!).

What for me constitutes a well-rounded jazz radio program? My current show, “The Creative Source”, has been running on SoulandJazz.com for over 10 years now. The show is typically 2.5 hours in length. My approach is to feature overwhelmingly new releases. There are so many excellent new jazz releases (now more in number than ever before). I am very passionate about giving these new releases by today’s artists an outlet where they can be heard and get even greater exposure. I spent 20-30 hours a week listening to new releases I’ve been sent as promos and then select the very best for airplay. I emphasize progressive jazz, jazz fusion, today’s current artists, and original compositions. I aim for a balanced approach in terms of the sub-genres of jazz: i.e. piano trios, quartets, quintets, big bands, jazz orchestras, etc. I also program some vocals – mainly those that are original, new takes on standards, progressive, or out of the ordinary. The latter part of my program is devoted to more progressive material – jazz that is often labeled ‘outside’, experimental, challenging, avant-garde, etc. I strongly believe that this type of music deserves a place to be heard as well.

I did terrestrial radio at several stations and each was programmed a bit differently, but I’ll focus here on my work at KSJS-FM, the San Diego State University radio station. For many years the weekend format was given over to jazz programming. I served as the Music Director for this portion of their programming for 25 years. I had the DJs operate from a clock, which called for different categories at different times of the hour. There was an emphasis on new releases – 6 of the 11 slots per hour were tracks selected from Heavy, Medium, and Light rotations of new releases, which I selected and partially changed once a week. The other 5 slots per hour were given to DJ options – they could play a new release, a track from an album in the library, etc. This provided the DJ a means to put his/her individual stamp on their program. I liked to think opf it as a 50-50 proposition, in terms of the control, between me as the music director and the individual show host. Locally, we have a rather vibrant jazz scene in the San Jose/greater SF Bay Area, so renowned artists who happen to live locally were emphasized. Also, artists who were playing live in town were featured. A significant amount of jazz fusion (jazz-rock, or jazz-funk, not smooth jazz) was a part of our sound – a popular sub-genre in our geographic area. A couple of us did regular interviews with artists (either live in-studio or phone interviews).

How would I program a 24/7 jazz station? Well, that woul;d be a wonderful job to have! I would start with designing a clock that might be something like 60-40 to 40-60 new releases to classics and standards. I might suggest 50% new releases, 40% classics, and 10% re-currents (albums that are, say, between a few months old to 10 yearts old – these often get left out of the programming on major stations. This approach gives a nice emphasis on new material, yet holds the interest of an audience by playing music that is both timeless and familiar (important to the history of jazz). This would include Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Charlie Parker, Max Roach, Bill Evans, Miles Davis, Bud Powell, Dizzy Gillespie, John Coltrane, just to name a few.

There are always special occasions that one needs to program for: birthdays of the masters, deaths in the jazz community, artists performing locally, special holiday observances (Black History Month; Jazz Appreciation Month; Christmas, etc.). I think it is important to include jazz from around the world – jazz as America’s classical music has become the world’s music, so including jazz from Africa, Europe, Asia, South America, etc. should be included in the regular rotation, not simply relegated to a specialty show – as it is an important and essential part of the genre.

There are many other considerations to effectively programming a jazz station. Factors such as emphasizing artists from a particular locale, balancing instrumentation (e.g. albums by leaders who are trombonists, trumpeters, pianists, drummers, etc.), featuring women artists without mentioning that they are women (which I think, albeit well-intentioned, can actually be degrading), sound quality of recordings, length of tracks, the number of appropriate tracks per each album that the station is going to play, tempo, mood, etc. Day-parting [factoring in time of day from stylistic perspectives] is also a consideration for 24-hour jazz stations, as well as the inclusion of specialty shows, interviews, special productions, features, etc.

Overall I think a station should also set the tone of educating the listener without being snobby or ‘looking down our noses’. For example including little tidbits of information, to educate while being inclusive and welcoming. It is important to regularly emphasize the African American roots of jazz, and its various influences in its origin, as well as its continued development and evolution to this day (e.g. incorporating other music genres, such as Afro-Caribbean, Brazilian, classical, rock, hip hop, reggae, township, etc.) and making these a part of jazz. Overall, the emphasis of a jazz radio program should be about the music, not about the announcer – minimizing talk by giving only some information each set (e.g. mentioning players on a particular cut/album, but not for every song in a set). The music speaks for itself!

In each case, I believe that it is vital to program with the intent of gearing towards a younger listening audience. Young listeners are our audience of the future. Many of us who are passionate about jazz were exposed to it at a very early age. For me it was Mom’s records and TV appearances: Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Herb Alpert, Tony Bennett, Bill Evans Trio, Nat Cole, etc. Part of this equation is the prominent inclusion of the many fine releases by today’s current young artists. Jazz is always moving forward and I believe in programming that reflects that. I am passionate about jazz radio programming and I know that many of my fellow radio programmers are too. I love what I do and I hope that translates into what the listeners get to hear!

Keanna Faircloth: To me a well-rounded jazz radio program embodies the concept of “Sankofa” – it looks back at the origins of the genre, and it connects it to those artists that are contributing to its evolution. It is one that is mindful of those listeners who may consider themselves “purists”, yet invites them to consider the sonic trajectory of the genre. By doing thos, we also make space for the next generation of listeners and fans.

Editor’s note: Keanna Faircloth’s most recent jazz radio venture was a 6-part limited series called “Jazz Beyond Tradition”, which launched on WJCT Public Media at 89.9FM in the Jacksonville, FL community as a six-episode series she co-hosted with drummer-bandleader Ulysses Owens that ran April 21st through May 26, 2024. “It was a 6-part series. However, we will do another season later this year/early next year,” she informed the Independent Ear.

Keanna Faircloth: Jazz Beyond Tradition is a space for conversation and music coverage. An exploration of jazz voices from the past, present and future. This show features engaging interviews with national and international artists and public figures alike. Keanna Faircloth and Ulysses Owens, Jr. chat with musicians on location at festivals, venues, and in the studio, with a focus on jazz beyond the tradition; honoring our elders while creating space for the voices of tomorrow in jazz and beyond.

To understand why great jazz radio still matters we’ve been turning to those essential jazz radio voices around the country who make a difference, and who continue to deliver the sound to their listening audiences and work diligently to grow the jazz audience. For part 3 of this ongoing series we hear from vocalist Andromeda Turre (heard throughout the week; check schedule), whose show Growing Up Jazz (she’s quite personally experienced in that title as the daughter of two exceptional musicians: cellist-vocalist Akua Dixon and master trombonist & conch shell fire-breather Steve Turre) is heard on SiriusXM’s Real Jazz channel, and two stalwarts from my home station, WPFW (89.3FM in the DMV; live streamed at www.wpfwfm.org), community radio in Washington, DC: veteran DC jazz show host Tim Masters (“Jazz Masters” Thursdays 10pm-midnight) and Craig Hall.

Andromeda Turre: The most well-rounded jazz radio programs are the generous ones. There is a sense of style and taste from the programmer, but they also consider music that the listeners love, even if it’s not always their favorite – so long as it’s good quality music!

I particularly favor a sense of balance and evolution with the music – keeping the tradition and the history at the listener’s top-of-mind, but also creating the space for living jazz artists and new original compositions so that the genre doesn’t become a museum piece.

In terms of talking to the audience, I like a similar approach, both including things like historic facts, band members and stories, as well as current and future happenings in the jazz world. This gives the listener the opportunity to augment their relationship to the music two-fold, hopefully deepening their place as a vital part of the jazz community.

Tim Masters: That’s an easy question to answer. A well-rounded jazz radio program entertains, informs, and engages. It provides context, and the occasional detail, when it’s important and when it matters. And a well-rounded jazz program takes the listener(s) on a musical journey of enlightenment and discovery. By discovery… I’m not just talking about “new” things. Personally I like to blend old and new. I like to bring an element of surprise (“The sound of surprise” ala Whitney Balliet and WPFW’s Larry Appelbaum), I want to deliver smiles not just of recognition (of say, an old favorite), but at all the twists and turns we take them on. If the sets are creative, that helps. If the selections weave together a story in music, it will (hopefully) grab the listeners. This could be achieved by blending old and new interpretations of the same tune, maybe mixing instrumental and vocal versions. It may be spotlighting a particular composer, or leader, or arranger, or sideman/woman. It could be a thematic arc (I especially like those!). It might be the lyrics themselves that are somehow related – even a single important phrase in a lyric – or, on a broader note, it may be the subject matter. It could be jumping from one genre of jazz to another, or illustrating/demonstrating how one genre led to another. Of course, I also like to occasionally mix things up with interesting (some may call them “odd”) contrasts. Something surprising. Maybe Mahalia Jackson or Sister Rosetta Tharpe, followed by Thelonious Monk… maybe Charlie Parker followed by Gil Evans playing Jimi Hendrix. Maybe something even stranger and more unexpected. Unexpected is an important part of the equation in my book. For reference, it’s kind of like the musical equivalent of the “impossible interview” caricatures that Covarrubias used to draw for Vanity Fair decades ago.

An important sidebar: All of these approaches to radio program production should all be presented in a natural, unpretentious way… not condescending to the audience at all… but leaving it to the listeners to hear, discover, recognize, and interpret in any way they choose to see fit. It also helps to sound and to be engaged. If I’m having fun, my hope is that [the listeners] will too. If I’m excited to share what I love about the music, I’m hoping that they’ll be excited to be hearing it… and if one plays one’s cards right, perhaps the audience will grow to love it as well… or love it even more.

My favorite analogy when discussing my approach to producing a jazz radio program – which i’ve been doing now for going on 47 years – is that we go in working with a blank canvas and we paint as we go. Lots of broad strokes, with an attention to detail in specific spots. Flourishes here and there. Our goal, as with any fine painting, is to draw the listener in. By the end of the program my goal is to have presented a complete and finished work that has brought the audience along with my throughout. They understand the process. They see the big picture. They “get it”. My hope is that their spirits have been lifted, their minds have been stimulated, their ears are happy, and I’m leaving them wanting more… and wondering wha I’ll be weaving, “painting”, or creating next time around.

Craig Hall: I’ve been hosting and producing music programs at WPFW for nearly 5 years. I was the former host for “The Continuum Experience” and currently I co-host “Brother Ah’s Collectors – Next Generation of Sound” [the WPFW show formerly programmed by the late Brother Ah, aka longtime jazz recording session French hornist Robert Northern] as well as an occasional substitute host for more than a dozen programs at the station.

The concept of being “well-rounded” suggests to me that something or someone is broadly inclusive and striving toward being comprehensive at some level. A “well-rounded jazz radio program” then, suggests two things: that the music played on the program is “Jazz” and not [music] of other genres; and that the playlist of any given show either represents as broad a spectrum of the music possible within the time given, or that the aggregated playlists of the show over time does so. The first point is one that I have found cannot be taken for granted. Just as we see so-called Jazz Festivals around the country headlining what amounts to be the best of Soul/R&B targeted toward adult audiences and little to no “Jazz” at all. I also hear programming that is billed as “Jazz” that is guilty of the same format. The second point exposes the challenge in being able to present all the music that has been created historically, as well as the current expressions of the music. How do you have a well-rounded” program when the source materials continues to expand, and we can never catch up to it?

Being “well-rounded” is a dilemma for the Jazz Programmer because it is impossible to be comprehensive. I assume there is a portion of the listening public that responds best to programming which skims across a wide swath of “the music” and its sub-genres and styles. That is the portion of the listening public that can be solidified into a loyal audience for a program of that type. This audience prefers variety over focused programming. They want as much of a mix as the programmer can provide of music that is vocal and instrumental; historical and new; straight ahead and experimental; ballads and upbeat; and which includes all the stylesthat have evolved from the 1920s until today.

Other portions of the listening public respond better to programming that is focused on the one or several areas for which they have an interest and appreciation. A “well-rounded” program to them feels inconsistent and inefficient. They don’t want to listen for two hours only to hear ten minutes of music that they really love. This type of audience is best served by a “focused radio program” that gives them two hours of music that they love, during the two hours that they are listening. This is particularly important in community supported radio, because it creates the conditions that lead to a loyal, residually giving audience for a particular show. Ultimately, “well rounded” and “focused” programming both have their place and serve their respective audiences that are looking for that type of experience. A radio station needs to have both well-rounded and focused Jazz programs to really cover the bases with its audience, so I would say that all “Jazz” radio programs need to be well-rounded.

From either perspective, programmers must make choices about what to play and what not to play in the time given. In most cases I believe those choices are made from a philosophical point of view or guiding principles; in other words the choices are guided by some thoughtfulness and rationale as opposed to being random. I think that this is important to do because it results in the highest likelihood that the music will be presented in the best way academically and emotionally. I believe that listeners prefer the presentation of music in such a way that it is leading them somewhere. They prefer “flow” over musical whiplash and digest the musical information better when it is provided to them with mental and emotional intelligence, as opposed to ina. way that feels like chaotic randomness. I feel like this is important to acknowledge because I have heard some programs that consist of random music that the programmer picked up at a yard sale over the weekend. The selection of music is not selected at all with any coherent intenton.

Having said that, I DO have a philosophy that guides my process of determining what music I will play on my show. It involves several factors, perspectives, and circumstances that mermge in a complicated and elastic algorithm that ultimately results in a final playlist that I can be proud of. The foundation of my guiding philosophy is the belief and understanding that “Jazz” music is African music in its cultural identity and pioneering expressions. It was created by the descendants of African people who were prisoners of war and enslaved in the United States. It is a product of African culture and the genius of African people, using whatever tools, knowledge and methods we deemed necessary to create, borrow, adapt or adopt. Musicians and listeners from other cultures may enjoy it and play it but that does not negate its African identity and source. People all over the world like pizza, and make pizza, but this doesn’t change the fact that pizza is Italian, and beyond pizza itself, only Italians and Italian culture can determine the course, direction and authenticity of the Italian cuisine that people around the world enjoy. My on-air music choices reflect the understanding that “Jazz” is African music, and it is a cultural treasure that stands as proof and testimony to the world and ourselves as to our inherent power and greatness. I present the music of African artiss whatever country or continent they may be from over the music of mediocre white or European artists who have been given credit and attention due to white privilege in a racist society. This doesn’t mean that I universally exclude white artists from my playlists, just that I don’t include any who are mediocre no matter how successful, accepted and famous their privilege may have made them.

The second most important element of my guiding philosophy is to include music that reflects spirituality in its intentions. That means I give preference to music that has spiritual and even religious messages or qualities over music that is the soundtrack to physical and material appetites. This preference is just a preference and not an absolute determinant. My purpose for each show is to “enlighten the mind, uplift the spirit, and strengthen the soul” and the music i select must support that purpose or at least not be in contradiction to it.

The third critical element of my philosophy that influences my play lists is the representation of social and political consciousness. Wherever possible, I try to include music that has a constructive or progressive political message in its lyrics, title or feeling. Most music does not satisfy this condition, but whenever it does, I am likely to include it for my show.

I also strive to be accountable to the history of “Jazz” music by making sure that I present the music of the “masters” and pioneers to provide a context of continuity and to preserve “Jazz’s” historic legacy. I think that is our responsibility, to remember our ancestors, teachers, elders and those that laid the groundwork for the culture and life that we benefit from today. Honoring history is a process of teaching and learning that is an important part of what I try to accomplish with my show. By including “the greats” in my playlists I’m also responding to the expectations of most “Jazz” listening audiences that they will hear copre, foundational artists and songs when they tune in.

No philosophy or show is completely inclusive. Most of the music I play was recorded after 1955, with a particular emphasis on recordings made between 1968-1972. This is simplky because I will only play music that I like, and I can only play muisic that I have. I like the “Jazz” music associated with hard bop forward, more than the music from bebop going back. Consequently this preference is reflected in my collection and impacts the historical scoope of the music that I can present. One of the reasons for my preferences is my age, and the fact that African culture was experiencing a political and spiritual renaissance and rise in African consciousness during the 1960s that best supports my philosophy.

In counterbalance to preserving history, I think it is important to present newly recorded music from artists performing and recording today. The music is alive and thriving and continuing to expand into new parts of the world and the emerging generations. The new music is exciting because it is the modern extension of all that has come before it. In that same vein I will also try to include the music of local artists, who should be able to count on the station and my show to distribute their music through the airwavws. These are the artists that we can go out and see perform at local venues, and I feel like my show should be informing people about who these artists are. Increasingly it is becoming important to terrestrial radio to serve the listening community and connect with local cultural agents in a way that the national media services cannot do.

For my show I learned to include vocalists in additional to instrumental music. This came about when I bewgan hosting a show that was preceded by another program that was about 90% vocalists. To retain listeners from the previous show, I learned to begin my show with vocal music that fit within my own philosophical parameters, even though knowledge of vocal music was not my strong point. This was a shortcoming that I havw strived to fix since vocal music is very vibrant and important to what I am trying to accomplish. Unlike instrumental music, vocal music is genderized because the vocal instrument is obviously male or female. Because of my belief in balance, I usually try to include equal numbers of male and female vocalists in my playlists.

Finally, I think that it is important to “spice” up my show periodically with surprises. These are music choices that fall outside of normal parameters and expectations and provide variety that is intended to be refreshing to he listener. I think it is important to be consistent in order to build an audience and gain their trust. It’s important to throw in something unexpected now and then so that the show and the audience can continue to grow and evolve.